Episode 210
🎧 The Big Things Killing Your Audience Growth (and How to Fix Them) | Guest Tom Webster
When audio pros want honest answers about growing their audience, they call Tom Webster.
In this episode, the Sounds Profitable co-founder and author of The Audience is Listening joins Kipper and Dave for a no-fluff conversation about what’s working—and what’s not—in the evolving world of audio-first content.
Tom debunks the myth that promotion is the key to growth. Instead, he reveals why most creators fail before they even hit "record." The solution? Get real about who your show is for—and make every second count.
He also drops straight talk on why public radio teases and repurposed morning shows won’t cut it in the podcast world, what the data really says about listener engagement, and why local civic content might be broadcast radio’s most underrated asset.
This episode is a must-hear for anyone trying to grow smarter in an oversaturated audio landscape.
Transcript
Anytime a podcaster asks, how can I grow my audience?
Speaker A:Most people will ask, well, you need to do cross promotions or feed drop, you know, do some Facebook ads.
Speaker A:And honestly, none of that is going to help you grow your audience if you have a terrible podcast brand with On Demand, rebooting radio with a different take on all radio can be.
Speaker A:In a lot of ways, radio broadcasters have as much, if not more to learn from great podcasters as the other way around.
Speaker A:Now your guides through the mediamorphosis, David Martin and author of the book Brand with media branding coach Kipper McGee.
Speaker B:Today we're joined by a true thought leader in the world of audio, both broadcasting and podcasting.
Speaker B:With over two decades of experience, Tom Webster has become one of the most respected voices in audio.
Speaker B:He's the co founder of Sounds Profitable, where he dives deep into podcast advertising and technology.
Speaker B:He's also the author of the Audience is Listening.
Speaker B:It's a newly released must read for anyone serious about building a loyal and lasting audience.
Speaker B:Tom's insights have helped countless broadcasters and podcasters alike navigate the rapidly changing landscape of audio.
Speaker B:Ramath On Demand is proud to welcome back Tom Webster.
Speaker A:Hey, Tom, welcome back.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I must not have stunk the joint up last time.
Speaker C:Not at all, not at all.
Speaker C:But you also have a great book out, and for those who have not read the Audience Is Listening, while written mainly for podcasters, it sure has a lot radio guys can take out of it too.
Speaker C:I mean, you emphasize the idea of earning an audience rather than deserving one.
Speaker C:So why don't you share some of the key steps that radio folks should take as well as the folks you're working with in podcasting.
Speaker A:But, you know, the book really stemmed from conversations that I have with podcasters all the time.
Speaker A: roadcast architecture back in: Speaker A:And you know, I managed to accumulate a lot of arcane knowledge along the way that I feared might be forgotten to the ages because I don't think it's taught anywhere anymore.
Speaker A:And that all kind of led me to these questions that I get from podcasters and, and anytime a podcaster asks how can I grow my audience?
Speaker A:Most people will ask, well, you need to do cross promotions or feed drops or, you know, do some Facebook ads or, or whatever.
Speaker A:And honestly, none of that is going to help you grow your audience if you have a terrible podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's going to help you promote that's going to help you advertise.
Speaker A:But that's not capital M marketing, which is really the theory of the firm.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's the full understanding of an audience that you want to reach and the crafting of a product that they want to hear, not the one necessarily that you want to make in the way you want to make it.
Speaker A:And that's just not a message that a lot of podcasters have heard.
Speaker B:Well, for radio professionals transitioning into podcasting, Tom, what are the biggest mindset shifts they need to make?
Speaker B:What techniques do you recommend for gathering and applying listener feedback and podcasting?
Speaker B:And for that matter, any audio, including radio?
Speaker A:Well, the great thing about podcasting, you know, it becomes sort of a drinking game when you talk about the benefits of podcasting.
Speaker A:And anytime anyone says, you know, it's.
Speaker A:There's an intimacy to it, you take a shot, I think, but there is an intimacy to it.
Speaker A:And it's often listened to in the headphones, and it's often a private, intimate space where the podcaster is talking directly to one human.
Speaker A:And I think that's the mindset shift that starts all of this, is that when you start a podcast, you need to get really specific about one person that you're talking to.
Speaker A: Not a mom,: Speaker A:And the more specific you can be about making a show for that one singular person, the better that show is going to be.
Speaker A:And I guarantee you there's more than one of that singular type of person out there.
Speaker A:And that's, to me, is sort of the hardest thing.
Speaker A:When I hear, sometimes when I hear radio personalities transitioning to podcasting, they're still like, hey, welcome to the big show here.
Speaker A:And it doesn't sound like they're talking to a single human.
Speaker B:Good point.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:So realizing that they are often the same humans, what are some of the key differences between those who listen to the radio and those who are listening when they're listening to podcasts?
Speaker C:And how can that influence the content creation when it's radio people that are doing it?
Speaker C:How does it manifest, I guess, is what I'm saying?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, radio for the most part is a lean back medium.
Speaker A:It's something that you have on in the background while you're doing other things.
Speaker A:It's a utility.
Speaker A:And podcasting, you know, kind of demands more forward attention.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's more of a lean forward medium.
Speaker A:And that Also, I think, changes how you approach things.
Speaker A:But, you know, and here's some guys, here's some tough love.
Speaker A:Like, you've, you've been in radio a long time, or at least associated with the industry.
Speaker A:So have I.
Speaker A:You know, a lot of what is on commercial broadcast radio now does not reflect the art of storytelling, does not reflect narrative technique.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, 80% of commercial broadcast radio is music and shut up because of ppm.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And then the other 20% is off a satellite somewhere.
Speaker A:And it's a lot of the same kind of content, right?
Speaker A:There's, it's a lot of financial programs or talk, you know, conservative politics.
Speaker A:It falls into very limited scope.
Speaker A:And I think the average radio station in the US doesn't necessarily have the muscle memory in the building to create fantastic storytelling and narrative arcs because they just haven't done it in so long.
Speaker A:And that's, that's some tough love.
Speaker A:I think in a lot of ways, radio broadcasters have as much, if not more to learn from great podcasters as the other way around.
Speaker B:Boy, I can certainly understand that.
Speaker B:But, Tom, in addition to that, what common mistakes do radio stations make when they're doing podcasts, and how can they leverage podcasting to create niche content that still resonates?
Speaker A:Well, I think you have to create it natively for the medium.
Speaker A:You know, there is a small market for, you know, what in the UK they call catch up radio.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Just stick your morning show on a podcast for people who might have missed it.
Speaker A:There's a small market for that.
Speaker A:Don't get me wrong.
Speaker A:You can, you can, you know, value, add some spots on that, I'm sure.
Speaker A:But every time I hear a podcast that is repurposed from a radio show, and I hear, you know, the, the personality say, you know, coming up next, we've got blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:But first, like, why are you teasing?
Speaker A:Why are you doing that?
Speaker A:You know, someone is giving you 30 minutes of their time or however long of their time they've got their headphones and you have their active attention.
Speaker A:Why are you continuing to remind them that what they want is coming up later?
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Now, in radio, you're doing that to extend tsl, but there's no such thing in podcasting.
Speaker A:Not like that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So a lot of those sort of things that are ingrained in, you know, professional broadcasters who are very good at what they do are not necessarily applicable to this space.
Speaker C:Interesting.
Speaker C:So maybe we shouldn't be teasing what you're going to be talking about after.
Speaker A:Our spots huh, well, more on that later.
Speaker C:Well said.
Speaker B:We can all learn something from Tom Webster.
Speaker B:What a bright guy.
Speaker B:Do you have a guest or topic in mind for our next episode?
Speaker B:Well, let us know.
Speaker B:Drop us a line@showrandwithondemand.com or connect with us on social brand with plus on Facebook and X.
Speaker B:That's brandwith plus.
Speaker B:P L U S brand with plus.
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Speaker D:Yeah, I just know with the right training, I can be the best.
Speaker D:Kid, you're out of your league.
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Speaker A:Adventures.
Speaker E:In Media Morphosis Brand with on demand.
Speaker C:So talking about measurement, you have done a lot in various lives that you have led with a research and whatnot.
Speaker C:Do you see a time when podcast measurement is going to be savvy enough that like YouTube, it can measure who is with you every second of a podcast?
Speaker A:Yeah, this is a, this is a complicated topic because, you know, first of all, the measurement in podcasting is exceptional and it's way better than it was five years ago.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We have, we have pixel based attribution products that let advertisers know that someone listened to the podcast and then went to their website that's available.
Speaker A:If you know there is player based data from certain platforms like Spotify where they do control the player and they do.
Speaker A:And they do control that.
Speaker A:And there's also really, really good log and server based data and all of those things are, you know, have to be triangulated a little bit.
Speaker A:But the good news is that there is a significant amount of that data and a significant amount of innovation happening to bring all those things together.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The difficulty is that podcasts are consumed on multiple platforms.
Speaker A:There are some podcasts like Joe Rogan and the Kelsey's and things like that that are predominantly consumed on YouTube.
Speaker A:And the stats you get on YouTube are really not all that parallel to the stats you get from an audio platform.
Speaker A:They track views, and I'm not exactly sure they can tell you what a view is.
Speaker A:And it's certainly not an impression, and it's certainly not, you know, a listen, which I suppose is what we're all angling for.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But I.
Speaker A:But I will say this, and if it sounds like I'm being a little harsh on the radio industry, it's because I'm being a little harsh on the radio industry.
Speaker A:When I hear people denigrate the metrics that are available in podcasting, I remind them that in many major markets, if a household drops out of the PPM process, an entire format gets tanked.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I was around for smooth jazz.
Speaker A:This is true.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:So, you know, I think the.
Speaker A:The measurement and metrics that we have in podcasting are significantly better than what you have in magazines, newspapers, radio, and television.
Speaker A:And they're not quite as good as what you get with wholly owned platforms like Facebook.
Speaker A:But I think also marketers have been a little spoiled by Google and Facebook, where they get all that digital data.
Speaker A:And it doesn't necessarily tell you why somebody bought something.
Speaker A:It just tells you that there was some association with the purchase.
Speaker A:So there's no perfect metric.
Speaker B:What can radio professionals learn from what podcasters have come to realize as best practice?
Speaker A:I think the most important thing is to maintain a deep, reciprocal, circular relationship with your audience.
Speaker A:And, you know, one of the great things about being a local radio personality, and maybe you have a morning show there that's a local morning show.
Speaker A:I love remotes, you know, when the.
Speaker A:When the jocks actually come out.
Speaker A:And one of the questions I always used to ask in focus groups or radio stations when I would talk about these shows is, you know, if you saw such and such, you know, Carlos and the Chicken or whatever at down at JP McBeers, would they be friendly?
Speaker A:Would they talk to you, or do you think they'd be, you know, you think you would be able to get to know them, or do you feel like they would keep to themselves?
Speaker A:I'd ask questions like that.
Speaker A:And when you're a podcaster, you largely don't get to hire me.
Speaker A:You've got to kind of do that work yourself, and you've got to ask better questions.
Speaker A:And I think the best thing you can do is not to ask questions like, do you like my show?
Speaker A:What do you like about my show?
Speaker A:Because people are not very articulate.
Speaker A:When you ask for general positives like that, but instead ask very specific questions like how did you find out about this show?
Speaker A:How did you learn about it?
Speaker B:Coming up, Kipper Tom Webster shares some things he finds as opportunities.
Speaker B:Hiding in plain sight.
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Speaker A:Sites brand with On Demand we are.
Speaker B:With one of the best and brightest, the co founder of Sounds Profitable and the author of the Audience is Listening, Tom Webster.
Speaker B:Tom, what opportunity for station people, for broadcast radio people do you find just hiding in plain sight something they can take advantage of to move forward?
Speaker A:I'm going to give you a wacky one.
Speaker A:And that's the bane of a lot of radio stations existence.
Speaker A:Remember when you had to put on public affairs programming and you'd like bury it at 5am because it was, you know, boring, not part of your regular programming?
Speaker A:Somebody cares about that stuff, right?
Speaker A:And that stuff is actually disappearing in local markets and that's the thing that I worry about.
Speaker A:So I think there's an opportunity without the obligation for high production, without the obligation for a large audience or selling spots.
Speaker A:I think there's an opportunity for passionate people at the station level to be more connected with civic things happening in their community.
Speaker A:And I say this as someone who, as you know, has also a long background in doing political research.
Speaker A:People today identify themselves very sharply about candidates and parties.
Speaker A:And there's a.
Speaker A:And that's identity politics.
Speaker A:It's very hard for people to change.
Speaker A:But those same people that are on one side of the aisle or the other can actually agree on civic issues.
Speaker A:They can agree on things like where are we getting our water?
Speaker A:They can agree on things like how fast or slowly we're developing and zoning and infrastructure and things like that.
Speaker A:People really care about that stuff.
Speaker A:And to me that's a way that a radio station may not have the budget to produce 24,7 wall to wall news coverage to still leave deeper footprints in a community.
Speaker B:Excellent point.
Speaker B:Great suggestion.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Our thanks to Tom Webster.
Speaker B:He's the co founder of Sounds Profitable and the author of the Must Read.
Speaker B:The Audience is Listening find more about Tom, his firm and his book in the show notes.
Speaker B:Just scroll down on your phone.
Speaker C:As always, thanks to our exec producers Cindy Huber for putting everything together and Hannah B for booking.
Speaker C:And coming up next, Hi, this is.
Speaker E:Angela Perelli of Angela Perelli coaching.
Speaker E:I'm a morning show coach and I love working with shows on all aspects including character development, content development, execution of fundamentals and coming up on the next brand with on demand, we'll talk about common mistakes that morning shows make, how to stay relevant in a time of rapid change and a lot more.
Speaker E:So hope you'll join us.
Speaker B:That's a wrap, Kipper.
Speaker B:The cost of postage is going up.
Speaker B:What does that have to do with audio?
Speaker B:We'll talk about it in the next one minute.
Speaker B:Martinizing Find it in the show notes@brandwithondemand.com I'm Dave Martin.
Speaker C:And I'm Kipper McGee.
Speaker C:May all your brand with be wide.
