Episode 199

The Station Whose Name Says It All...with PRIDE! Meet KGAY's Brad Fuhr & Chris Shebel

In honor of LGBTQ+ Pride Month, Brandwidth on Demand features Brad Fuhr, owner of KGAY Radio in Palm Springs, and Chris Schebel, KGAY's Program Director. KGAY Radio in Palm Springs, known for pride and inclusivity, integrates radio with digital content through the Gay Desert Guide. Brad and Chris share insights on creating a vibrant community hub, innovative audience engagement, and successful sales strategies. They discuss the evolution of KGAY, its national reach, and plans for future expansion while offering solid tips for making ANY niche format more successful. Their passion and commitment to the LGBTQ+ community underscore the station's unique and impactful presence in the radio landscape.

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Transcript
Chris:

KGAY is a lifestyle, but it doesn't matter if you're 18 or 80.

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KGAY is the gay radio station, and

it's playing, hopefully, the music

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that you like, a lot of the music

that you remember, and then, from that

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basic thing, then comes the magic.

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VO: Welcome to BRANDwidth On Demand,

your guide to rebooting radio.

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Brad: The businesses that we do

partner with they are getting great

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success from the radio station.

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That's it.

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I mean, the thing is the advertisers

do get results from the station

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and people are all the time

going into our advertisers and

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saying, I heard this on KGAY.

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VO2: BRANDwidth On Demand, rebooting

radio with a different take on

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all radio can be now your guides

through the media morphosis.

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David Martin.

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And author of the book, BRANDwidth,

media branding coach, Kipper McGee.

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Dave: Today, in a special celebration

of LGBTQ plus pride month,

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BRANDwidth On Demand is honored

to feature two key figures behind

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a station whose name says it all.

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KGAY.

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K G A Y.

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a station who embodies

pride and inclusivity.

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Brad Fuhr, the visionary owner of KGAY,

began his illustrious career at just 15.

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Significant roles at various

radio stations and broadcast

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companies led to MS Interactive.

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Brad has consistently

championed LGBTQ plus media.

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In 2013, he founded BRANDwidth

On Demand, further integrating

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and uplifting community voices.

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Chris Shebel, KGAY's Program

Director, brings extensive

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experience from top markets including

Chicago, Phoenix, and Portland.

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He pioneered dance hits format nationwide.

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Together, they're transforming KGAY

into a vibrant, inclusive community hub

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for the Coachella Valley and beyond.

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From KGAY Radio in Palm Springs,

BRANDwidth On Demand proudly

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welcomes Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.

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Kipper: So I got to ask, and I think I'll

throw this to Brad first, but Chris, chime

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in what inspired you guys to integrate

radio with digital content through the

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BRANDwidth On Demand and how has this

impacted your audience engagement?

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Brad: Well, I'll take that question

first because I had BRANDwidth

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On Demand for a number of years.

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I was a little sidelined from radio.

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I was teaching radio out here

at College of the Desert, but I

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was not doing anything actively

in radio and I was missing it.

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And I got wind of a new nonprofit starting

up in the community where they were going

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to take a commercial radio frequency

and start a Nonprofit organization

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with an LGBTQ plus radio station.

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Unfortunately this coincided almost

exactly with when odyssey launched

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channel Q, which was their LGBTQ offering.

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They, I believe that the airwaves

just prior to when KGAY launched.

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Is that correct?

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About three weeks, three weeks or so.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And uh, I started getting all

of the great people that I know

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together and Chris Shebel was here

and I think you were here in Palm

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Springs at that time, were you not?

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I was.

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Yeah.

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So we got you involved in the

board and we started architecting

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the programming for KGAY.

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And the nonprofit piece of it.

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Unfortunately, did not survive.

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And after about a year of running this as

a kind of a hybrid for profit nonprofit

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with Chris at the helm and programming,

and I was managing the station the owners

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that were funding this decided they

wanted to go into a different direction.

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And so at that point, after a year of.

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and really a great integration between

BRANDwidth On Demand and KGAY Radio.

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They decided that they would take it a

different direction, and Chris and I and

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the whole team basically left the station.

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But in that time, we had a chance

to experiment with this integration

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of radio and Gay Desert Guide from

a sales standpoint, and of course

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we know that radio is a great driver

of website traffic, so it was a no

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brainer to have KGAY radio driving

traffic over to Gay Desert Guide.

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What we did in a sales effort was try

to package everything together so that

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an advertiser who was already on Gay

Desert Guide could add a certain number

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of spots per week in packages and

integrate those two things together.

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And it worked.

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I thought fairly well.

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I don't think they thought

it was moving fast enough.

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That's when they pulled the plug.

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We sat out COVID, which ended

up being a blessing in disguise

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that we had these two years off.

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And then I came back and purchased

the station from one of the two

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owners who was very friendly to us.

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And that's when we were able to kind

of reenvision this and and get it

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to where we really wanted it to be.

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Chris, I'll let you take it from there.

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Chris: Uh, you know, anytime that

you launch a radio format, you, the

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old rule used to be one year in a

book market, and then we got PPM.

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It's like, Oh, now you

can tell in six months.

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No, now you can tell in five weeks.

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But it's not true.

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It, it takes a long time to build a brand.

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Uh, the idea of a gay radio station was.

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Pretty revolutionary, when we were like,

okay, we're going to do KGAY when KGAY

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went on the air, you'd walk around town.

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If you go, have you heard this?

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You, what are they doing on the radio?

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I think it brought people back

into radio as a destination.

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And then the combination with BRANDwidth

On Demand, of course, because that

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was already an established brand.

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It gave us the opportunity

to just take both of those

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platforms and make them grow.

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But like Brad was saying,

the growth didn't happen the

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way they wanted or whatever.

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And, so we were just like,

okay, I'm old, I'm semi retired.

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I don't know.

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I'll be happy to just

like lay by the pool.

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And so we set it out for a little bit.

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And.

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The good news is one of the owners

became a very good friend and even

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when I left, he's like, I wish you

hadn't left, you know, he's very

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nice and one of his dreams was that

he wanted to sell the radio station.

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That's why they started the nonprofit.

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He wanted to turn the radio station into

a gay radio station and run by members of

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the gay community because he really felt.

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It may be part of a legacy thing.

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I don't know.

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But he felt that, in this

particular community that

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would be the right thing to do.

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And so here we are.

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Brad: And his name is Greg Smith.

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He would not mind us, of

course, using his name.

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And he sold me the radio station at

a very, I thought, a very fair price.

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He did.

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AM station with an FM translator

and the translator at a, what, 175

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Watts is probably the most successful

translator in the United States

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in terms of ratings and revenue.

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Chris: We're very fortunate.

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Palm Springs is very, very unique.

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It's extremely over radioed also

because of this, but we're in this

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valley surrounded by mountains.

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And so the LA signals, the San

Diego signals, all of the big ones.

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I can't get over the mountains.

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So we basically have a full spectrum here.

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But because we're also enclosed and

we don't have tall buildings, I think

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our tallest building is what four

stories now, or is it four stories?

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Brad: Yeah.

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Chris: We don't have multi path,

so a translator it, it worked.

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We weren't sure, frankly, what was

going to happen, but when we saw the

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first ratings, when we subscribed,

it's like, We're doing this with

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a hundred seventy five watts

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and now we have another signal too.

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So we're even in a better situation now.

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Dave: Well, can you guys share

your vision for the future of KGAY

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and its role in the LGBTQ plus

community in Palm Springs and beyond?

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I mean, how might that differ

from a mass market station?

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What elements are the same?

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Which ones are different?

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Chris: I think from the radio standpoint,

a lot of the elements are the same.

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We're primarily a music radio station.

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Our format is hard for some people to

figure out because we play disco to death.

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We're talking 50, 60 years worth of

music now that we integrate every hour.

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Because the radio station is not

designed, you know, most of my programming

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experience has been, all right, we

want to go to get a 25, 54 women.

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Okay.

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What do you really want?

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And then they break it down from

there and you get narrower and

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narrower to try and own a cell.

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KGAY is just the opposite.

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KGAY is a lifestyle, and it doesn't

matter if you're 18 or 80, KGAY is the

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gay radio station and it's playing...

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hopefully the music that you like a

lot of the music that you remember.

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And then , from that basic thing,

this is what the structure is, then

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comes the magic and that's the,

I believe the, the people in the

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the commitment to the community.

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Our morning show.

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If I was going to be doing

it in LA, I probably would

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do a lot of different things.

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than, Hey, we're going to talk

to so and so today about, the

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theater production" or whatever.

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But here we do that here.

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KGAY is a local radio station

geared to the gay community, but.

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Not even just the gay community anymore.

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Especially since we put on the second

signal, things on Facebook and stuff

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like, so from women in particular,

in the area that we never conserved,

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like I found this great radio station

and they don't care that it's gay.

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Brad: Yeah they kind of like to

get in on what we're doing.

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They're listening in

right on the party line.

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You know, And, your question

about, a national brand or what

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else would we do with this?

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I would love to have a second, literally

streaming only channel of KGAY that

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we could send across the world.

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Now we do have people

listening all over the world.

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We've opened up our streaming.

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I have extremely high costs for streaming.

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But that is, actually underwritten by

the Bureau of Tourism, which is fantastic.

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But, I think if we had our druthers,

we would have a second brand that

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could be more music focused and more,

probably more limited in our commercials.

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And something that could still

be a brand extension of, I think,

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Chris: uh, yeah.

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KGAY is it's important

to keep in mind that.

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KGAY really is now like a national brand.

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You go anywhere there's

gay people in the U.

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S., people know about KGAY.

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We have people who listen every day.

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They stream more than listen

to any of their local radio.

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And that's because it's

for their community.

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And when you go from, Being like

the editorial people, the content

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people, we do see now that part of

our job is to talk to the, to people.

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We reach people that, live in these

states where, they're starting to

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feel afraid to leave their house.

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And we are a lifeline.

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And so part of our duty is, and it's, some

consulting guys go, Oh, that's bad radio.

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They're talking for a minute we talk

for a minute because it's part of our

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job is not just to play songs, but to

tell the people listening what's going

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on in this world, because we may be the

only place that's going to tell them

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what's happening for our community.

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Right.

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So, Chris, you have worked a

lot of formats, a lot of markets

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tru dat!.

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Kipper: And you talked a little bit about,

how that fits in with the community.

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Can you walk us through

just a basic formatic hour?

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Or is there no such thing?

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Well, I'm sure there is, \ cause I

scheduled the music, you know, we,

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but I, every hour is a balanced out

an hour of all the different genres.

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And it's also based on a

little bit on how we live.

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Like you'll hear more of the disco

classics, for example, or earlier in the

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day than you will at 10 o'clock at night,

cause we know that the audience for that,

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like most people, my age are in bed.

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But we also from day one wanted KGAY

to always reflect current stuff too.

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We play current songs and now that we're

a Mediabase reporter, everybody wants

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to get their songs on, but you know,

we can't do them all, not every week,

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but so the music is all structured out.

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And it's, you know, everything is

balanced based on era and the usual stuff.

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What kind of, is it a pop song?

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Is it an alt song?

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You know, cause even in dance there are

those, those subcategories and then we've

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got Harry Legg does our imaging and, Harry

has got the perfect sound for this format.

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And when we can write some more

edgy ones, Harry can even make

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them sound edgier, which we like.

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And then we have a staff of mixers

that do a retro show every day at

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noon, which does real well for us.

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John Taylor, who does mornings is

the Gayborhood is what we call it.

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Call it his Gayborhood, because I say

he's the mayor of arenas, which is the

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big street here where all the bars are

and stuff, because everybody knows John

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and, uh, we we don't tell him to shut up.

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We tell him to when you talk to people,

get to the main points and keep it

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entertaining and that's his job.

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And so basically it's a radio

station, but it's a radio station

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designed for a specific group of

people, welcoming people from outside

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of the group, but we're never.

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Not going to be who we primarily are.

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Dave: You folks have certainly

embraced and part of your magic

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here is embracing your community.

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Like the arts community has

to love you guys, right?

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I mean, uh, that's got to

be an amazing relationship.

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There has the community embraced you back.

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Are you being financially

supported by the community?

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Brad: Oh, yes.

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I mean, I can speak to that the revenue

has literally doubled year over year.

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The last couple of years, we came out of

covid and, had some, then we basically

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doubled that first year that we owned it.

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We took it over in August and

:

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And then 2023, we doubled from there and

we're really on track to, to do well.

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Not only the LGBTQ owned

businesses are supporting us,

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but, there's many that are allies.

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There are some businesses that

I would not take money from.

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I know that there are some businesses

that are not supportive of us.

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We try not to look at it in black and

white political terms, but there are

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some businesses that just, we wouldn't

want to take their money because we don't

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believe they would be supportive of us.

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It would be more of a, they're

opportunistic and we don't want that.

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So the businesses that we do

partner with they are getting great

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success from the radio station.

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That's it.

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I mean, the thing is the advertisers

do get results from the station

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and people are all the time

going into our advertisers and

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saying, I heard this on KGAY.

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, we've got a couple of salespeople

that write incredible copy.

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Paul Saliano, who has

been in radio for years.

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He made the jump from programming to

sales, and he has done just a fantastic

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job in making sure that the spots are

as engaging as the programming is.

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Chris: I think part of the challenge

with when you do, especially when you

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launch a radio station is, uh, where are

the revenue streams going to come from?

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And I think we were very fortunate

because Brad was already here, and

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he's been doing non traditional media

for, with Gay Desert Guide a few years.

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So when we put it on we didn't have to

go in and go, hi, we're this brand new

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radio station that you know nothing about

and nothing about the people behind us.

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And we hope you like us.

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We already had.

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People that knew the product of

Gay Desert Guide so then it came

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teaching them the value of radio and.

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An active audience.

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It's so much easier.

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Well, you guys know, I remember

back in the old days of top 40, when

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everybody would listen to the radio

and you would go and go, you'd do a

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bit and a hundred people would show

up and the advertiser, even if they

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didn't, if they were like only looking

at ratings, might go like, Oh, geez.

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I may have to rethink that.

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And we got away from that in radio in

general, because we don't have people

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to go out there and do that anymore.

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And, we also philosophically, some

think that none of that matters,

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but we still think it does.

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And it certainly helps our sales effort,

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Kipper: So speaking of sales, can you

share with us without having to kill

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us, uh, any recent initiatives or

partnerships or anything that really

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contributed to KGAY's growth and success?

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Brad: Well, I, mentioned briefly the fact

that Visit Palm Springs has been a great

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supporter of ours and even to the point

where they funded the streaming costs

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because the those costs for streaming

are just incredible when you're doing,

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well north of a million streams per

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per month you have to pay

thousands and thousands of dollars.

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So that's been helpful.

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We work with Palm Springs

International Airport.

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We're doing a big promotion with one

of the LGBT travel companies right

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now with the Chris's, song of the day

contest, which is a tried and true

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radio winner, and we tied that back to

the airport providing airfare and this

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great cruise in Europe this summer.

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The response to those kinds

of things has been very good.

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We've got a great sales team

and you know, I package sell.

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We make this very simple.

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There are three packages

that an advertiser can buy.

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It's a kind of a saturation package,

a medium package of about 25 spots

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per week, and then a branding plan,

which is like three spots a day, one

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prime, one evening, one overnight.

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And you know, the, the.

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It's easy for an advertiser

to understand that.

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I think we've made radio way too

complicated to buy, and I really

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discovered this when we first put KGAY on

the air, but now that formula works very

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well, tried and true, an agency is going

to buy differently, slightly differently.

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We don't get a lot of agency

business, but in this case, an

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advertiser gets it and they get.

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Results from it

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Chris: and it doesn't

hurt that many of them.

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Love the radio station person.

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Dave: We're with the KGAY guys,

Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.

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Is there a guest or topic

you'd love for us to feature?

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Well, let us know.

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Email your suggestions to

show@brandwithondemand.com or

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connect with us on social Brad with

Plus on Instagram, Facebook, and X.

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That's brand with plus PLUS brand with.

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Plus,

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Kipper: and if you're enjoying this

or even learning stuff from it,

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we invite you to spread the word.

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So others can too, just tell them

to follow BRANDwidth On Demand

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wherever you're getting this

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Dave: Coming up, we asked Brad

Fuhr, and Chris Shiebel for their

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tips on creating niche programming,

including some things they've learned.

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Spot: I'm a music director

at any radio station USA.

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I do a five hour shift,

hours of production, live

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appearances out the Yazoo.

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And oh yeah, my PD just heard two

slow songs back to back followed

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by three of the same artist.

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My station sounds like a dumpster fire.

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If you have any other music scheduling

software, this could be you.

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will sound like a well curated album.

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Dave: Guys, what advice would you give

to other radio managers and owners

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looking to create a successful niche

station that serves a really specific

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community like you've done so well?

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Brad: Well, , Chris and I are both

looking at each other on that one.

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Dave: You guys made a

rather bold move here.

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, you have to admit, mean, take,

take credit for this bold move.

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I mean, it really is.

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Chris: It is bold, but it is

not something that was untested.

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I did similar formats to this in

the suburbs of Chicago, where,

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you'd be lucky to get a one share.

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And all of a sudden we're getting

one fives and people are like,

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Oh, this is a really cool radio

station , we did it, , we did it in

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San Francisco and a few other markets.

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So there is some variation

was on KTU for years.

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So I think the advice that MusicmasterI

guess I would give is the first

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thing you've got to understand

if you want to do this kind of a

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format or some other variation for

different groups is even if you're a

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subscriber to the ratings screw it.

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Because the ratings is not

designed for creativity.

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It's not designed for passion.

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It's designed, especially in PPM markets

for, those people that are carrying

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the thing that they don't even know

what it's for, except that they maybe

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are going to get a gift card . You

have to go in and you have to make the

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emotional commitment to the format.

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And then you have to be sure to hire

people that believe in the mission,

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because a lot of people in radio, not

so much anymore because there's not many

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left, but you know, back in the day,

there was like the whole class of people

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that would jump from station to station.

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The station wasn't the mission,

their performance was the mission.

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Here, it's your performance is great,

but you know, the radio station is what

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matters to this community and you're

part of it becomes your performance.

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Brad: And, it's hard to replicate

something like this for other niches.

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I was thinking about

this question earlier.

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Yeah.

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And I have trouble under, maybe Spanish

language, I think probably has some of

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this, certainly some of the religious

stations, Chris, to your point about

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passion and things like that and belief.

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I think they can do that, but

I think that the issue really.

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For radio as a whole, we've just

gotten boring and we've gotten

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formulaic with our radio programming.

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There's really nothing terribly

new and exciting on the radio.

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And so when something like KGAY comes

along, it makes a big impact because

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it is so different and so unique.

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And, I bought another station from

Audacy in fact, we bought the station

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that had channel Q and took it to the

MeTV FM format, and that's a, Very broad

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:

format tied back to the TV channel.

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:

, there are some parallels between the two

radio stations and the two do compliment

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:

each other from a sales standpoint.

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Chris: Yeah.

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I mean, it's all about passion.

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I learned that in Chicago when we put

the Kiss station on out in Arlington

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Heights and we're doing top 40 comes

back to Chicago and most of the city.

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You couldn't hear it, but man, where you

could people love that radio station.

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And I and that was the, yeah, I mean,

it was a lesson in, you can be the big

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:

guy and you can follow the formula.

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:

And you can be successful.

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:

Or you can take some risks and maybe

you're going to have just as much success.

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:

And then when Clear Channel made their

Kiss and took our Kiss away, that's

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:

when we put on Energy, which was just

was actually a 10 minute conversation.

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:

It was me and Steve Davis, who was working

with Guy and Steve as our consultants and,

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uh, we're in the market manager's office

with the head of our company in LA, and

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Then we're like, what are we going to do?

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:

Because they're going to, they

told us they're taking the format.

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They're also taking our name

because they have it copyrighted.

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:

So, you know, do we

really want to be top 40?

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And so we're like, Oh, what are you doing?

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:

And I just said, we could try dance.

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Dave: Oh yeah.

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No, I remember that.

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No, they did.

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Chris: And a couple of people

are gonna be like, what?

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:

And the head of the company, and

this is where it's important that

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leaders understand when to take risks.

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:

The head of the company

said what dance you mean?

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Like I said, you know, kind of

like club music, but not what

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people think it is of the thumper,

thumper, thumper, eight minute songs.

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These are hit records that all

have this dancy rhythmic feel.

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He's like, Oh, that sounds like fun.

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Why did you do that?

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And that was the end.

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Boom.

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We changed our format because,

because he said, do it.

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So take risks.

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Our thanks to Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.

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:

Links to their website and

more all in the show notes.

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Just scroll down on your phone

or find it at brandwithondemand.

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:

com.

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Kipper: As always, special thanks

to our exec producer, Cindy

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Huber, who put this all together.

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And to Hannah B,, our

associate producer for booking.

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Speaking of which coming up next

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Mike McVay: Hello boys and girls.

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:

It's Mike McVay here Inviting you to

discover the secrets of innovative

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:

marketing We're going to show you how

to leverage all your media platforms

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:

and make your media brands stand

out in a crowded mediascape It's all

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:

next time on BRANDwidth on Demand.

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:

Dave: That's a wrap.

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:

Kipper.

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:

It's time to reinvent

your content or is it?

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:

That's the topic of this

week's one minute Martinizing.

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Find it in the show notes

at BRANDwidth On Demand.com.

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:

I'm Dave Martin.

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:

Kipper: And I'm Kipper McGee.

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:

Oh, youBRANDwidthst.

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:

Be Wide!.

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Brandwidth On Demand
The 15 Minute Podcast About Making Great Radio

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Kipper McGee