Steve Goldstein says "Evolve NOW Or Fall Behind" – 5 Tips and 1 Warning

Steve Goldstein: 00:00:00

YouTube is the second largest television network, if

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you want to view that as a network.

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It's massive.

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And that's where so much of

media is being consumed today.

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So when we talk about tweaking for

the younger generation, if you are

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not on other platforms, I don't think

you can win place or show in the game.

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In other words, a big tower out in the

field is not going to get the show.

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Job done,

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VO: BRANDwidth on Demand.

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Rebooting radio with a different

take on all radio can be.

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Steve Goldstein: I think radio has

waited too long to deal with on demand

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strategies in a significant way, and

I wrote a piece recently highlighting

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the aging of the linear media business.

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But what I made clear was that

podcasting is the new talk radio.

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And I mean that with all sincerity, and

I mean it a little bit with the shock

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value too, that if you don't build out

the next generation, then you are sorry.

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AM radio or your telephone booths.

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You're just not as important.

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VO: Now your guides through the

mediamorphosis, David Martin and

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author of the book BRANDwidth,

media branding coach Kipper McGee.

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Dave Martin: Hey kids, this time we're

deep diving into the world of on demand

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audio and podcasting multi platform audio.

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That's right.

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With over three decades of experience,

our guest has been a pivotal figure

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in transforming the audio landscape.

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He's driven innovation and growth

at major broadcasting companies,

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including one where he was co-founder

and Executive VP, Saga Communications.

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And by the way, a station guy at a

legendary station, WABC in New York.

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His expertise in content creation and

digital strategy has guided brands

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through the shift from traditional

broadcasting to digital audio.

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Leading a firm known for its strategic

insights and creative solutions, he's

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a sought after speaker and thought

leader shaping the future of audio.

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BRANDwidth on Demand is proud

to welcome the founder of

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Amplifi Media, Steve Goldstein.

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Kipper McGee: Hey, Steve.

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Steve Goldstein: This is a lovely intro.

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Thank you very much.

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Now the pressure is on, I guess.

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Well, I'm not so sure about

that, but I do know you will

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have something to say on this.

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With TV and print audiences aging, what

do these demographic shifts mean for

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the future of radio and podcasting done

by radio stations or personalities?

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Well, so I think you have a combination

of things occurring at the same time.

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You have the aging of linear media cable

news is at 70 and primetime TV, primetime

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TV, which was sold as an 18 to 49 medium.

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The average is now 65

for linear primetime TV.

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Newspaper, if still getting one, is 60.

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Talk radio is at 58.

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And that's a kind number because

Nielsen combines sports talk,

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which is a lower demo, then news

talk, which is a higher demo.

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So you can extrapolate out what that 58

might be without the sports talk stations.

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That is not a good looking number.

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And then you have podcasts.

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Podcasts are checking in 30 years younger.

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34 is the median age.

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Dave Martin: Wow.

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And how are the media habits

of that younger generation

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changing the game, Steve?

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What can radio broadcasters do

to tweak their engagement and

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content to attract these listeners?

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Steve Goldstein: Yeah, if only it were

a tweak, Dave, I think it's, I think

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it's way more systemic than a tweak.

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And so, look, the generations, the

younger generations specifically

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are using content differently.

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You know, you don't have to be a

nuclear scientist to know that,

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TikTok, Instagram, things like that are

significant factors, but so is YouTube.

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YouTube is the second largest

television network, if you

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want View that as a network.

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It's massive and that's where so much

of media is being consumed today.

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So when we talk about tweaking for

the younger generation, if you are

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not on other platforms, I don't think

you can win place or show in the game.

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In other words, a big tower out in the

field is not going to get the job done.

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And I do think about it

through the same eyes of TV.

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The local TV station is under

tremendous pressure for the same

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demographic reasons I just recited.

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They are using streaming.

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They are using YouTube.

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All to reach the audience where they are.

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And here's an example.

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SNL in the middle of April, the

highest rated episode of the year

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on SNL was with Ryan Gosling and it

did 8 million views in linear TV.

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Meaning that 8 million people watched

it either on Saturday night or delayed

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it and watched it at another time.

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But 46 million people watched

clips of the show on YouTube.

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170 million people.

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Watched clips on Instagram,

TikTok, or wherever.

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So, what they've learned is that

they must be multi platform.

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And I think the same thing holds true

for broadcasters, radio broadcasters.

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So I, I do not think it's a tweak.

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Podcasting is a necessary tool.

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Streaming is a necessary tool.

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I think you need to get out from

under the notion that people are just

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going to listen to you on a radio.

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Yeah, we're still seeing that it's down

from 93 percent for a long time, but

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now it's like 80 something percent of

people listen to radio once a week or so.

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On that note, is there a way that

radio broadcasters can utilize those

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strategies that make a difference?

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Podcasting attractive to advertisers

so they can compete with things like

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you mentioned YouTube and TikTok.

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Is there a way they can do that?

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Yeah, I think so.

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I really do.

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I think radio has underplayed the

potential of time shifted audio.

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When I started Amplifi, which

believe it or not, Kipper,

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is nine and a half years ago.

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Kipper McGee: Wow.

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Dave Martin: Wow.

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Steve Goldstein: And a lot of

weird eye rolls at the time.

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What's this guy doing?

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In the nine and a half years, I

would say seven or eight of them, I

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thought time shifted audio was like

the Rodney Dangerfield of podcasting.

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Nobody wanted to touch it.

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Today, I feel very differently about it.

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I think it's a significant retention

strategy that is totally underutilized

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by radio, and I will give you

a frightening example of this.

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So we took a market, a

large market, top 20 market.

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And we took the top seven morning shows.

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Okay.

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So this is not the, screwed up

stations, the ones that are a mess.

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This is the top in the market.

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And we looked at listening patterns.

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And what we saw was that just

under 60 percent were listening to

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the morning show one day a week.

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That's it one day a week.

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And only.

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18 percent more were

listening two days a week.

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So only 18 percent two days a week.

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That's frightening.

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That's systemic.

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That suggests that the business model is

just broken and the audience has already

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said, Hey, I'm doing other things.

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And so if they happen to like your

morning show, shouldn't you think

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about strategies to help them?

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In offering that content on other

platforms so that they can consume it

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in other ways because they've already

voted and said, Hey, you know what?

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We're not around enough.

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I mean, maybe they're not

commuting as often as they used to.

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Maybe they have other

shows that they like.

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I don't know, but I do know that

taking a morning show and shoving

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three hours of it into a podcast is a

really bad idea and it's not working.

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Kipper McGee: So, shifting gears a

little bit, what are the relative

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pros and cons of using the TLR,

total line reporting, compared to

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those who separate the streaming

signal from the on air broadcast?

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And do you need to be a certain size

organization to have it make sense,

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or how do you see that whole world?

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Steve Goldstein: Yeah, I

think that's very bespoke.

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I think it's a really good question, too.

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So, streaming is moving north.

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There's a lot more streaming going

on, depending on the format, depending

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on the size of the radio station.

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It could be 12%, 15%.

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It could be as high as 20 percent of

the audience listening via streaming.

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So, that's no longer a

little rounding error.

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, that means those little Alexa speakers

in everybody's home are radios.

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And so that's pretty exciting.

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So that's great.

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So that would suggest that combining those

numbers together for TLR would be good.

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And the podcasting part of that

is, let's say they do listen to a

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signature bit of the morning show and

they listen to it within 24 hours.

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That's also accretive.

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And so if you combine those things and

I'm just making up this number, let's

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say it's 20, 25 percent of the listening.

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That's a big number.

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I mean, all of a sudden pay attention.

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There's a, there's an opportunity here.

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So I don't think.

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The TLR is a problem.

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I think it's an asset in most markets,

but I do think that there are many

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scenarios in which people are making

more money by separating out the

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opportunity of selling the stream

and the podcast than combining it.

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So I do think, and I've worked

with broadcasters who in their same

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organization will make that strategy a

bit more bespoke, depending on the size

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of the market or the size of the station.

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But I love the idea that

they're thinking about it.

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Dave Martin: How do you see a AI changing

the future of podcasting, broadcasting,

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audio, and what ethical issues should

creators of both consider to balance

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AI's benefits with maintaining genuine

human connections with their audience?

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Steve Goldstein: Isn't to say,

I think it'd be like NFTs and

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it'll just be gone in a year.

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Uh,

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I'm afraid not.

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I, I think this is a real thing.

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So it depends what media

we're talking about.

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I am amazed at how good

the audio is so fast.

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I would not have guessed that there

would be such great intonation and

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things of that nature in audio.

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And yet it is.

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It is here.

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I do think that the audience

is really sharp and I do think

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certainly on the podcast side, that

authenticity makes a difference.

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I think that broadcasters or any audio

creator will make a mistake thinking that.

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They can use AI as the surrogate.

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But I also think that it's a great

tool for production and for, the

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back office sort of stuff to improve

workflow and things like that.

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So, in one place I worry about

it a lot and the other, I

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recommend it often, but it is.

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Changing so fast.

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If we had had this conversation six

months ago, I'm not sure we would

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have found audio samples that sound

as good as what we hear today.

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So it is moving rapidly.

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Kipper McGee: Yeah, and it's kind

of on a hockey stick trajectory.

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It looks like.

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Steve Goldstein: Yeah,

and the legal issues.

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Dave, you asked about the legal issues.

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That is such a Pandora's box.

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There's so much going on there.

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And I think we'll see more.

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I read this morning that Drake fake

song that they were suing the record

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companies and producers of it.

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I mean, you're going to

see a lot of that, right?

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It just makes sense that people are

gearing up trying to figure out how

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to protect their copyrighted material.

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And you see it on the graphics.

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You see it with pictures and watermarking.

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I think we're going to see

audio watermarking as well.

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I've had the conversation with Dan Granger

and Stu Redvine over at Oxford Road and

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they're an agency that does bespoke audio,

about how to watermark original audio.

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I think it's a conversation.

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Dave Martin: And intellectual

property is going to be a very

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important issue going forward.

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It really is.

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Steve Goldstein: And I have a brother

in law who is in that business

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has been it's he's moving to a

couple of record years, I think.

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Dave Martin: Oh, no doubt about it.

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Kipper McGee: Business is very good.

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So looking forward, opening your

crystal ball app on your phone.

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What key factors do you think are going

to really be shaping the future of

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podcasting in the next five, 10 years?

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Steve Goldstein: So I think when

we're talking about podcasting,

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we're talking about a medium that

is growing and changing rapidly.

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Again, I started my

business nine years ago.

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There was $250,000 of

revenue in the business.

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This year there'll be over 2 billion.

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So it's still small, especially compared

to commercial radio, saying but it is

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growing rapidly just as on demand video.

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Has grown.

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This is the way people will expect

to find and listen to audio.

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And when I think about it in terms

of radio, and here we are doing this

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radio oriented podcast, I draw your

attention to the top 50 podcasts.

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On Apple podcasts or Spotify,

it doesn't really matter, and

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the diversity of topics.

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Out of the top 50, only

eight are political.

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About four are true crime and seven

are comedy, business and technologies

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in their sports, self improvement.

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There are five titles on self improvement.

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My point here is that diversity of

topics in podcasting is so great.

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And it suggests a desire to

listen to things that go way

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beyond conservative talk radio.

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They want to be entertained.

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They want to be informed.

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And there's also a lot

of new personalities.

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And that's something we haven't

seen in the radio business in

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forever is investment in new voices.

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And it is happening in podcasting.

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That is where the experimentation occurs.

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And I can tell you for sure that the

mortality rate in podcasting is not good.

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Most podcasts end up in the

recycle chute, but if you make it.

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And if you are making it, it is

because you are, differentiated and

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you're bringing fresh content on

topics that people are interested in.

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There are topics like self

improvement with Kuberman Labs that

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does extraordinarily well and has

since the beginning of the pandemic.

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And there's Alex Cooper, who's talking

about, younger, more millennial,

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And younger than that issues.

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There's a great diversity of voices

and I think that's what's going

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to drive podcasting in the future.

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Dave Martin: No doubt about it, Steve.

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We can all learn something

from Steve Goldstein, the

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Amplify Media founder and CEO.

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Hey, got a suggestion

or a guest or a topic.

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We're all ears.

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Drop us an email at show

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And with over 200 episodes,

we're here to help you master

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the art of audio like a pro.

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Dave Martin: Coming up, Steve

talks to us about what trends

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and opportunities he sees in time

shifting your audio to on demand.

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Yeah, that sounds really good.

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Who are you talking to?

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VO: Opportunities hidden in plain sight.

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BRANDwidth on Demand.

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Dave Martin: We are here with

the founder and CEO of Amplify

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media, Steve Goldstein, Steve.

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One question that many

stations are still debating.

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Are the merits of utilizing podcasting

for time shifting, to make the radio

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station content available on demand.

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What trends and opportunities

are you seeing in this area?

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Steve Goldstein: So let's go back to

something we talked about earlier.

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I think the TV model is a really

good one for radio broadcasters.

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I think bite sized content is the win.

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It's not the long form.

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: 00:18:05

No one listened to your radio

show for three and a half hours.

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: 00:18:08

They're not going to listen to your

podcast for three and a half hours,

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: 00:18:11

but they might listen to four or

eight minutes that were really great.

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: 00:18:16

And, sad to say, but you guys know you've

been around doing this for a long time.

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There's.

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three levels of content.

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There's A level B level and C level.

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And most content is in that C and B level.

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And the great moments are A level.

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: 00:18:30

And those are the moments that you should

be making available to listeners again,

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for retention, but also for growth.

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: 00:18:37

These are two very different strategies

and we do work with radio clients on this.

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I think that there needs to be way

more rigor and focus and thought placed

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: 00:18:48

into it as opposed to, yeah, we made

a clip out of the thing and we made

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: 00:18:52

it into an MP3 and we published it.

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I don't think it's as easy as that.

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: 00:18:57

Kipper McGee: And one thing, it just

seems to me looking at it, A news

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: 00:19:02

talk radio station, one of the things

you would think that people are

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: 00:19:06

coming to them for is information.

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: 00:19:09

Yet, many of them do top of the

hour and that's it, and then

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: 00:19:14

the rest is network and spots.

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: 00:19:17

Wouldn't it make sense for more news

talk or even sports stations to do a

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: 00:19:21

recap of that as a podcast and keep it

there till the next one was recorded?

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: 00:19:27

Steve Goldstein: Well, you you see that

in public radio the NPR hourly news

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: 00:19:33

is their top podcast You see that at

the BBC BBC is the hourly newscast.

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: 00:19:40

So what does that tell you?

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: 00:19:41

It tells you that it's vital product,

but not everybody's going to listen

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: 00:19:45

to it at the top of the hour.

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: 00:19:47

That's just old school thinking.

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: 00:19:49

They may get to it at 25 minutes

after the hour or when and

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: 00:19:52

when they get into the car.

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: 00:19:54

That's what on demand is all about.

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: 00:19:56

And I don't think.

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: 00:19:58

I don't think Linear can win any

longer, even though they may do a great

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: 00:20:03

sportscast at a quarter after the hour.

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: 00:20:06

It doesn't mean people are

jumping in to their car at a

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: 00:20:09

quarter after to listen to it.

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: 00:20:11

Dave Martin: No, Linear's

the world of live sports now.

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: 00:20:14

That's about it.

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: 00:20:16

And there's nothing wrong with that.

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: 00:20:17

That's a fantastic, but not at all, but

it is not the only way to reach people.

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: 00:20:23

Very good.

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: 00:20:24

I think any final word, any

final words of wisdom, Mr.

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: 00:20:28

Goldstein, I think radio has waited

too long to deal with on demand

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: 00:20:35

strategies in a significant way.

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: 00:20:38

And I wrote a piece recently highlighting

the aging of the linear media business.

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: 00:20:45

But what I made clear was that

podcasting is the new talk radio.

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: 00:20:52

And I mean that with all sincerity, and

I mean it a little bit with the shock

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: 00:20:57

value too, that if you don't build out

the next generation, then you are sorry.

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: 00:21:03

AM radio or your telephone booths.

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: 00:21:06

You're just not as important.

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: 00:21:09

Our thanks to the always

insightful Steve Goldstein.

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: 00:21:12

Links to his blog, his website,

and more all in the show notes.

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: 00:21:16

Just scroll down on your phone.

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: 00:21:17

Kipper McGee: As always, our

thanks to exec producer Cindy Huber

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: 00:21:21

for putting this all together.

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: 00:21:23

And coming up next.

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: 00:21:25

Thee Kelly Ford!: Hey there, it's Thee

Kelly Ford, host of Backstage Country

384

: 00:21:29

on In 80 Cities, around this great

country of ours, and afternoon hoston

385

: 00:21:35

1 0 3.1, the Wolf in Long Island.

386

: 00:21:37

Would you like to learn how to lose

weight, how to have better sex, and how

387

: 00:21:43

to earn $10,000 in less than three months?

388

: 00:21:46

None of that I can tell you, but we will

have fun with Kipper and Dave coming up

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: 00:21:52

next episode of BRANDwidth On Demand.

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: 00:21:55

Dave Martin: That's a wrap, Kipper.

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: 00:21:56

Want to get better?

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: 00:21:57

Well, you need to seek out criticism.

393

: 00:22:00

Start asking people, Hey,

what am I doing wrong?

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: 00:22:04

We'll talk about that in the

next One Minute Martinize.

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: 00:22:07

You'll find it in the show

notes at brandwithondemand.

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: 00:22:10

dot com.

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: 00:22:11

I'm Dave Martin.

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: 00:22:12

And I'm Kipper McGee.

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: 00:22:13

Stay creative and let

your BRANDwidth shine.