Episode 192
Fred Jacobs: Secrets to Shape Your Future in Radio and Podcasting -
We welcome back Fred Jacobs, the media visionary and founder of Jacobs Media Strategies, known for creating the Classic Rock format in the 80s.
This time, Fred emphasizes the importance of innovation in the radio industry. He expresses optimism about radio's future and ways you can succeed, but he also highlights the need for creative formats and reaching diverse audiences.
We also dig into podcasting, where Fred expresses a somewhat bearish outlook on stand-alone podcasts due to saturation and challenges in audience discovery and monetization, but also shares ways in which established radio brands can still use podcasts to advantage.
As always, Fred provides key insights into what we can learn from radio’s past, present, and thoughts on our future, touching on topics like podcasting, AI, and marketing strategies.
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Transcript
Uh, we're really in a, a period and, and we've been in a period
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:for a long time where there hasn't
been a great deal of innovation.
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:That's not a winning strategy
in an environment like the
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:one we're in, struggling.
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:VO: Welcome to BRANDwidth on Demand,
your guide to rebooting radio.
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:Fred: We don't have to market anymore.
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:Everybody knows who we are and what we do.
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:Obviously that was a bad rationalization.
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:But even things like bumper stickers,
and you'll hear broadcasters
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:to this day say nobody will put
a bumper sticker on their car.
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:But they're putting bumper
stickers on laptops.
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:I mean, people do want to display
brands they love and brands they use.
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:VO: BRANDwidth on Demand.
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:Rebooting radio with a different
take on all radio can be.
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:Now, your guides through the media
morphosis, David Martin, and author
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:of the book, BRANDwidth, Media
Branding Coach, Kipper McGee.
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:Dave: Fred Jacobs is a media visionary
and the founder and president of Jacobs
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:Media Strategies, a consulting firm
that specializes in the radio industry.
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:And also digital media.
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:He's known as the creator of classic
rock radio formats, which debuted in
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:the early 80s in America and is now
heard in hundreds of markets in the U.
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:S.
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:and also around the world.
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:Fred's a frequent speaker at
industry events and continues
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:to write extensively about the
radio industry and digital media.
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:If you're not reading his daily
blog while you're missing out,
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:we'll link to it in our show notes.
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:He's a passionate advocate for radio and
believes that it has a bright future,
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:even in the face of digital disruption.
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:He's also the co host
of an annual CES tour.
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:He started back in 2009 with his brother.
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:And we highly recommend that by the
way, it's coming up in:
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:BRANDwidth on Demand is proud
to welcome back Fred Jacobs.
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:Hey, Fred, Fred,
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:Fred: wow.
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:What an ovation.
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:Thank you guys.
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:No, that was really a swell introduction.
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:It's, uh, it's been a while
since we've seen each other.
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:You know, we're.
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:We're running out of conferences to go
to because they're disappearing, sadly.
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:Yes, yes, sadly.
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:Isn't that weird?
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:I know.
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:There used to be too many of
them and now there aren't enough.
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:I mean, how does that happen?
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:Kipper: Hardly any.
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:Well, first, congrats on
40 years of consulting.
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:I mean, that's, that's a milestone too.
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:Yeah, that kind of snuck up on us a
little bit and actually linked in.
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:Right.
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:Yes.
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:Congratulate Fred on his work anniversary.
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:Uh, all of a sudden one day
they started coming in and it's
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:like, holy crap, it's 40 years.
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:So yeah, it's, it's a really nice thing.
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:Uh, you know, for, for me,
the real big benefit is for.
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:Forty years I haven't had
to worry about what's next.
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:That's for sure.
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:Right, which used to be the question
that hounded the young Fred.
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:Uh, back in his formative years, you
know, yeah, this is great, but where
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:am I going to be a year from now?
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:You know, that I, I was that guy.
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:So
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:yes, we were all, I think,
radio nomads to one extremer.
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:Fred: Right.
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:I mean, what market am I going
to be in a year from now?
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:Right.
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:And I sure don't want to be here.
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:So yeah, so no, it's, it's, uh, I'm really
blessed, you know, I have nothing, but
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:gratitude as that milestone comes up.
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:I did not think that would happen but
it has, so it's, it's really nice.
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:Kipper: So can you share with us like one
particularly brilliant moment that you've
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:witnessed during your client client run?
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:Fred: So, you know, going back to
Dave's introduction, it was obviously
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:for me, the classic rock format.
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:I mean, I, I really wanted to not
just be a typical consultant, I
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:wanted to do stuff, or make things
that might actually be unique.
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:And the format turned
out to be, exactly that.
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:And it was not for a lack of...
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:Hardship on the way up.
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:It took me quite a while to get
this thing sold and established.
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:Nobody really knew who
I was back at that time.
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:I did not have much of an industry profile
and frankly, nobody really thought it
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:was a really cool idea to devote an FM
station to, a format that just played old
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:stuff without currents, especially at a
time when, you know, MTV was exploding.
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:And the Hot Hits format was going
crazy in radio, and here I am running
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:around going, No, it's an all gold
format and it's going to last.
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:And I wasn't actually sure of that.
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:So, uh, right?
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:So, yeah, that was kind of the thing.
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:And, you know, guys, it ended up,
uh, pitting me against some...
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:Really incredible radio
stations that I had nothing
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:but respect for over the years.
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:And, you know, suddenly here I am
competing against KMET and The Loop and
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:WMMS and KY 102 and all these stations.
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:So it, it was really an exciting
time for me, um, and it still
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:continues to be, you know, the format.
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:It obviously has legs and has kind
of morphed and evolved and done a few
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:things that I might not have been able
to predict, uh, 35 or so years ago,
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:but yeah, it's, it's, it's been great.
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:So yeah, for me, that's probably
been the coolest thing I've
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:been blessed to be a part of.
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:Yeah.
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:Kipper: Excellent.
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:Dave: Well, Fred, I mean, you've got a
real streak of contrarian there that I
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:think serve you and the industry well.
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:Radio being, uh, what it is, a lot
of naysayers recently, yet you remain
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:very bullish on audio, including radio.
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:So, to start on an upbeat note here,
what do you see as today's biggest
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:opportunities for stations and for
individuals at the station level?
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:Fred: So, I still think as an industry
we, we have upside, but it's not going
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:to be achieved in the conventional ways.
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:I mean, we are still...
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:Sort of, for the most part, everywhere.
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:I was at a conference a number
of years ago that Paul moderated
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:a panel with Tim Westergren,
formerly the creator of Pandora.
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:And Paul asked Tim if he actually
ever listened to broadcast radio.
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:Dave: And Tim said, you know,
I'm jealous of broadcast radio.
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:You guys are a one button solution.
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:You're easy to listen to and you're free.
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:And that really stuck with me.
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:I mean, here was one of radio's arch
competitors and, and here he was kind
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:of coming up with the, the rationale.
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:So I, I do think radio has a lot of things
going for it, but, uh, we're really in a
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:period and, and we've been in a period for
a long time, as you guys know, where there
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:hasn't been a great deal of innovation.
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:in the radio broadcasting industry when
it comes to formats or content creation.
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:We've pretty much kind of
been steady as, as she goes.
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:And that, that's not a winning strategy
in an environment like the one we're in.
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:So, I mean, that's one of the reasons
why we do the CES thing every year.
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:I mean, we, we need that infusion of
innovation and embracing new ideas.
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:But I, I think there are
formats to be created.
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:I, I think there are audiences to reach
that we have walled ourselves off from.
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:And so a regular theme in the blog these
past few months has been suggesting that
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:people maybe look at the industry a little
differently, kind of turn things on their
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:side, get out from under that 30 year.
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:Uh, self enforced 25 to
54 year old demographic.
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:And let's start thinking about going
north of that or south of that.
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:Cause there's a lot of audience
there and there's money there
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:if we go about it the right way.
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:So yes, I think there's upside,
but we're not going to get
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:there the way we're going now.
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:Kipper: So Fred, what's your current
read on podcasting, especially as it
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:impacts radio stations and personalities.
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:Fred: So I've become somewhat bearish
at at this point, and I'll tell you why.
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:In terms of its impact on radio,
there's no question that podcasting
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:is erosive to broadcast radio.
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:The more people get into podcasts, the
more they move away from linear radio as.
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:Some people like to call this so there's
that but the reason that I'm bearish
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:really doesn't have anything to do with
that I I look at the podcast landscape now
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:and I see a marketplace that is totally
Saturated with content that people seem to
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:have trouble finding there are still murky
technical details that flummox people
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:Who are trying to get into podcasting.
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:I mean, every year in Tech Survey, we
kind of come up with a fairly similar
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:number, and it's in the 50 to 60 percent
range of our overall radio audience, who
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:either never listens to a podcast, or
does so, so infrequently, that it's not
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:really part of their audio, uh, habit.
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:And I, I feel like, you know, this...
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:This platform's been around
a long time now, and it is
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:still struggling to achieve QM.
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:In a meaningful way.
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:I mean, we still see more people listening
to podcasts this year than last year.
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:But again, that 60 percent line
for me is really a problem I think.
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:And then there's the ROI piece, right?
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:I mean, not all podcasts
are created equal.
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:There's a podcast like we're doing here.
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:Where it's three guys sitting
around overhead's not going
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:to be completely absurd.
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:So kudos to you guys for finding a
way to do this that is cost effective.
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:But, as we know, some really
great podcasts out there are
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:like Game of Thrones, you know?
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:They've got a cast of thousands,
and it takes a long time to...
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:Crank out an episode.
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:And I don't think a whole lot of strategic
thinking has up to this point gone into,
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:can we afford to produce that podcast?
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:Can we actually make back and
even then some our investment?
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:No research is being done in
the field, really, to speak of.
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:I mean, we all come out of radio,
right, where we've researched
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:everything now for decades.
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:Right?
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:The music and the personalities
and how, how long should this be?
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:And do they like this
benchmark over others?
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:And yet you talk to a podcaster and you
go, so what's working exactly for you?
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:And they kind of go, well,
uh, our downloads are up.
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:And I'm like, wow, that's like
saying our ratings are better.
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:I mean, that doesn't really
tell you a whole lot.
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:So I think for a lot of radio companies
that aren't iHeart, there are much less
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:expensive digital avenues to go down
where you can actually create cool stuff
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:and not have it cost an arm and a leg.
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:And you can actually make money
on, on these things and attract.
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:New audience so we're headed down some
of those paths I mean any broadcaster who
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:says I've got a killer idea for a podcast.
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:I'll push them really hard to To really
write that business plan for the podcast
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:because I'm dubious After all these
years and you know one more thing you
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:take a look at you know WNYC in New York
You know, which is really considered to
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:be the biggest, maybe most successful.
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:Uh, public radio station in the country.
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:They've got their own podcasting wing.
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:Empire.
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:Right.
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:Exactly.
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:WNYC studios.
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:And a week or two ago, uh, you know,
I'm dating your podcast, but a week
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:or two ago, they laid off 14 percent
of their staff, much of whom are
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:part of the podcasting division.
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:And they are sunsetting what
appeared to be some popular podcasts.
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:So, you know, I, I look at that and
I think, wow, I mean, podcasting
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:in this country kind of came out
of public radio to a great degree.
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:That's where some of the seminal podcasts
and, and podcasting geniuses came out.
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:And here's WNYC struggling
and NPR struggling.
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:So that's a really long winded answer,
Kipper, but I'm, I'm kind of thinking,
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:you know, maybe don't try this at home if
you don't really know what you're doing.
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:Kipper: Good movie.
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:Dave: Good points, Sam.
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:You recently presented, speaking
of research, your AQ5 results
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:at the Morning Show Boot Camp.
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:Can you share some of the highlights,
Fred, and what they mean for young
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:people who are interested in a career in
broadcasting, as well as info and tips for
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:radio vets that want to remain relevant?
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:Fred: So, I think one of the key
findings, Dave, is that when you ask
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:veteran on air professionals if they
had to do it all over again, what kind
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:of company would they like to work for?
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:They will tell you, to a great degree,
not one of the bigger companies, one
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:of the medium or smaller companies.
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:And I think that really is a...
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:Paradigm shift, right?
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:Because the three of us got into
radio when it was all about...
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:I gotta get to Chicago, New York, or L.
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:A.
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:I mean, right?
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:If I don't work my way up through
the small and medium and medium
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:large and largest markets, I
have not had a great career.
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:And here we've got the majority
of on air talent, including people
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:working in big markets now for big
companies kind of going, you know,
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:if I had to do it all over again,
I think I would scale down a bit.
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:So I, I found that to be a,
uh, a big finding this year.
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:There's a lot of fear of AI.
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:I, I had to include questions
about that for obvious reasons.
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:I mean, we need to get the
air talent side of this.
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:We have every other side except
the people who are to a great
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:degree in fear of being replaced.
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:So to me, that's one of
the big takeaways here is.
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:If you have a great brand, you can
extend it, but do it the right way.
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:It's way too easy to fail.
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:Dave: We can all learn something
from the Hall of Famer, Fred Jacobs.
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:That's for sure.
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:Somebody you'd love to hear from.
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:We'd love to hear your suggestions.
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:Email us show at brand with on demand.
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:com or reach out to us on social brand
with plus on Insta, Facebook, and Twitter.
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:Oh, that's X that's brand
with P L U S brand with plus.
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:Kipper: And Fred, along with the
entire Jacobs have lots of great
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:resources, all free to you, including
Fred's AQ5 study and the webinar
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:replay, his blog, and got so much more.
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:Just tap the links in the show notes.
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:Dave: Coming up, Fred shares
one thing that works so well,
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:radio just stopped doing it.
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:Spot: Music Master, less stress, more yes.
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:Hey, this is Dave Tyler.
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:And maybe it's just me, but I love uptempo
songs coming out of the legal ID at the
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:top of the hour, as well as out of my
stop sets, it's kind of like saying,
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:all right, we're done with business.
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:Let's get back to the party to do this.
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:I use clock filters in these
positions that only choose
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:medium up or uptempo songs.
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:Sounds great.
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:Every time.
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:And it's.
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:Easy to set up.
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:If you have any questions, just shoot
me an email at Dave at music, master.
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:com.
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:Music master music, scheduling
the way it should be.
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:Kipper: Hey there, Kipper here and
ready or not, holidays are here.
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:So one way you can help out
your listeners and your bottom
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:line is with radio swag shop.
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:You just give them some cool
holiday artwork, pick your items.
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:They do the rest.
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:They'll do the sales website.
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:They handle the fulfillment,
the transaction.
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:All your station has to do is sit back
and reap the holiday swag shop easy.
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:Just follow the link in the show notes
or go to radio swag shop.com and be
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:sure to use the coupon code kipper.
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:That's Radio swag Shop.
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:Coupon Kipper your listeners and
your station's holiday budget.
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:will thank you
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:VO: stuff that worked so well, we
stopped doing it friend with on demand
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:Dave: We're back with the hall of fame
guy fred jacobs fred Would you share
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:one thing that you believe has worked so
well that radio just stopped doing it?
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:Fred: Yeah, we stopped marketing, David.
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:I mean, that's, that's right, because it
worked well, but, you know, I think this
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:attitude kind of permeated during the
early years of consolidation back in the
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:90s that we don't have to market anymore.
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:Everybody knows who we are and what we do.
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:And obviously that was a bad
rationalization, but even things
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:like bumper stickers and you'll
hear broadcasters to this day
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:say, nobody will put a bumper
sticker on their car, but they're
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:putting bumper stickers on laptops.
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:I mean, people do want to display
brands they love and brands they use.
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:So the stoppage of marketing.
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:Uh, you know, to throw that money to
the bottom line, as they say, I think
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:radio really did a pretty good job.
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:Collectively as an industry,
marketing his products in all kinds
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:of interesting and unique ways, and
sadly, that has come to a grinding halt.
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:And I think not coincidentally, uh,
the industry has certainly suffered.
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:Over the years where marketing
has been virtually non existent.
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:Kipper: And interestingly, if our
clients practiced what we preached,
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:there'd be no income for the industry.
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:Fred: Yeah.
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:Well, there's that point too.
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:Um, but you know, one thing
leads to another, right?
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:I mean, you, you keep pulling the.
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:Pick up sticks out of the structure and
eventually the structure just collapses.
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:I mean, you, you can't keep
throwing money to the bottom line
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:and cutting, cutting, cutting.
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:You're not gonna have
a whole lot left, so.
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:Mm hmm.
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:Uh huh.
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:Dave: Our thanks to Hall
of Famer Fred Jacobs.
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:We have links to Fred's blog, tons of
research, and more all in the show notes.
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:Just scroll down on your phone.
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:Kipper: As always, special thanks to
our exec producer Cindy Huber who put
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:this all together, and to Hannah B,
our associate producer for booking.
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:Speaking of which coming up next,
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:Corey: hi, it's Corey Dylan from 100.
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:7 Big FM at Local Media, San Diego.
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:And we're coming up next.
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:Hope you'll stick around to
hear the best pieces of advice.
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:Yes, three different pieces of advice
that I got one from a mentor in radio.
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:One from George Clooney,
not personally, I wish.
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:And the third from actor Brian Cranston.
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:Stick around.
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:Dave: That's a wrap, Kipper.
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:Never stop learning.
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:We're gonna talk about learning
in One-Minute Martinizing.
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:Find it in the show notes
at BRANDwidthondemand.com.
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:I'm Dave Martin.
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:Kipper: And I'm Kipper McGee.
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:May all your BRANDwidth be wide.