Episode 196

From Fear to Resilience: Steve Reynolds helps you navigate Radio's changes

Steve Reynolds is a renowned radio talent coach focusing on Top 10 Talent.

With a career that started in the 1990s, he has worked his way up from on-air positions to programming and management roles at notable stations including the legendary WRAL.

In 2001, he established the Reynolds Group, offering innovative strategies and assistance to top shows and stations across the country.

In this episode, Steve unveils ways to conquer the fear of change and embrace it, as the world is constantly evolving. He emphasizes the importance of staying relevant and updated, encouraging radio shows to constantly adapt and modernize their content to maintain a connection with their audience.

Steve also offers some interesting ways for you to become multimedia stars, with a presence on TV, social media, and of course, within the community,

Steve has also written for major media publications and regularly speaks at industry events.

Time-Stamped Highlights:

(01:58) Steve shares some of the biggest opportunities for local radio hosts and stations today, as the industry reacts to current conditions.

(05:01) The question is never how to make mistakes, but rather, how to avoid them. Steve identifies some of the most common and suggests ways to avoid them.

(07:23) If you'd like to keep up with changing trends in the radio industry and stay ahead of the curve, Steve has some interesting insights.

(10:41) Steve shows some Top 10 Market strategies for building and maintaining an audience in today's competitive radio landscape, and how they can be done in ANY market.

One-Minute Martinizing (tap here)

* * *

Please help us thank these BRANDwidth on Demand supporters:

Transcript
Steve:

I tell talent if you don't like change, then you will really hate

2

:

irrelevance because the world around

us all day long is changing and you

3

:

have to change and modernize and update

your show all the time because it's

4

:

art, it's living and it's breathing

and the biggest mistake I hear are

5

:

shows that are frightened of change.

6

:

Welcome to Brand With On Demand,

your guide to rebooting radio.

7

:

Talent today need to be multimedia

stars and their companies.

8

:

have to support and give them the

resources to elevate them there.

9

:

It's no longer good enough

just to be great on the radio.

10

:

You have to be great on the radio, but

you have to have a television presence, a

11

:

community presence, uh, you have to have

a social media presence, and they all have

12

:

to Interact with one another in a, in a

way that is generated by content bandwidth

13

:

VO: on demand.

14

:

Rebooting radio with a different

take on all radio can be.

15

:

Now your guides through

the media morph ssis.

16

:

David Martin and author of

the book, bandwidth Media

17

:

Branding, coach Kipper McGee.

18

:

Dave: If you Google the term radio

top 10 talent coach, you're likely

19

:

to see the name Steve Reynolds.

20

:

Yeah, Steve Reynolds.

21

:

He's the guy that began his on air

career in the 90s, worked his way

22

:

up to programming and management

positions at stations, including the

23

:

legendary WRAL, among many others.

24

:

In 2001, he started the Reynolds Group,

helping radio stations across the country.

25

:

He's known for his innovative and

effective strategies that improve

26

:

radio programming and get good

ratings in all kinds of formats.

27

:

And he's helped launch and relaunch

many successful radio stations.

28

:

He's written for the big

media publications, a frequent

29

:

speaker at industry events.

30

:

And this time around brand with on

demand is proud to welcome back the

31

:

top 10 talent coach, Steve Reynolds.

32

:

Kipper: Hey,

33

:

Steve: Steve.

34

:

Goodness.

35

:

Cue the cue, the golf applause.

36

:

I couldn't know David.

37

:

I could never live up to that intro.

38

:

That's insane.

39

:

It's insane.

40

:

Oh, we have no doubt.

41

:

It's great to be back with you guys.

42

:

I adore this podcast and I'm

just so happy to be conversing

43

:

with you on all things radio.

44

:

Really important.

45

:

So

46

:

Kipper: the last time that

you joined us was right before

47

:

the pandemic, as I recall.

48

:

So now that we had kind of a chance to

figure out what is yet another new normal.

49

:

We get the challenges, but the

question really is, what do you see

50

:

as some of the bigger opportunities

for the shows, especially those

51

:

that are doing local radio

52

:

Steve: today?

53

:

Yeah.

54

:

For me, one of the, one of my

takeaways from COVID was how desperate

55

:

listeners are for connection.

56

:

You know, radio has some Superpowers

and its intimacy to me has always been

57

:

probably at the very top of the list.

58

:

Our superpowers just, I mean, it's

what the three of us learned when

59

:

we were young and in the business

and growing one to one, it's just

60

:

you and it's me and that's it.

61

:

And what we learned in covid was

Though the numbers were down, listening

62

:

was less, people were at home,

most of our listening is in cars.

63

:

People are desperate to connect

with other human beings.

64

:

I don't know if you guys, you

guys both have the internet

65

:

where you live now, don't you?

66

:

The interweb

67

:

Kipper: has reached,

yes, it has reached us.

68

:

Steve: You know, the world is, if you

spend five minutes a day on the internet,

69

:

the world is a difficult I'll say it,

ugly place sometimes and our intimacy

70

:

brings people safety and takes fear away.

71

:

And we can remind people how nice

the world can be if we're nice

72

:

to them and connect with them.

73

:

And there's a very interesting

article in the New York Times.

74

:

The Surgeon General.

75

:

As we tape this, in the last week wrote

an op ed in the New York Times about

76

:

something I talk to shows on all the time,

the epidemic of loneliness in the world.

77

:

We're all on social media, we all are

texting all day long, and you know, I

78

:

check Facebook 45, 000 times a day, and

most people feel lonely, they feel alone.

79

:

And I would say the opportunity that has

presented itself in this, this new normal

80

:

that you reference, Kipper, is for us.

81

:

To be that companionship with

the listeners without ever

82

:

sacrificing our relevancy, our

sense of humor, our honesty.

83

:

We do it through our authenticity.

84

:

If we don't take advantage of that

in all the ways in which we can have

85

:

a relationship with this listener,

we'll never build that, that loyalty

86

:

through connection that will make

us relevant and powerful again.

87

:

In this fractured media landscape, Steve,

88

:

Kipper: that's a

89

:

Dave: good point, but what are

some of the common mistakes

90

:

that radio personalities make?

91

:

And how can they

92

:

Steve: be avoided?

93

:

Well, let's play off that theme of fear.

94

:

I mean, David, there's a lot of

there's talent that are scared.

95

:

They're scared about their jobs.

96

:

They're scared with the world around them.

97

:

They're scared of change.

98

:

Before I moved to where I live in

Raleigh, North Carolina, to do mornings

99

:

at WRDU, I was, you know, I was,

I remember like it was yesterday.

100

:

It was the 80s.

101

:

I was with my mother in her brown Delta 88

Oldsmobile on the freeways of Los Angeles.

102

:

We had gone back to her workplace

where my contract was faxed.

103

:

And I had never seen

anything like this before.

104

:

And I'm an insecure 25 year

old and I'm reading this

105

:

contract in the car and I get.

106

:

More and more worried about

what am I signing here?

107

:

This seems serious and my mother said

well, what's the worst that could happen?

108

:

And I said I could fail and she

said so what so what if you fail

109

:

in Raleigh you pick yourself up?

110

:

You dust yourself off you move on

to the next thing She said Stephen

111

:

because she's one of very few people

who called me Stephen So if either

112

:

of you call me Stephen before the

end of our Time today, I'll, I'll

113

:

think you're channeling my mother.

114

:

She said, she said, Stephen, the

only thing that can't be undone

115

:

is jumping off of a building.

116

:

You jump, you're obligated.

117

:

Gravity takes over.

118

:

You can't undo that.

119

:

So why don't you embrace the

change in your life and go and

120

:

see about this job in Raleigh?

121

:

Well, here we are guys.

122

:

I don't even want to give

you how many years later.

123

:

It's measured in decades.

124

:

I love where I live.

125

:

I see great opportunity here.

126

:

I tell talent, if you don't like change,

then you will really hate Irrelevance

127

:

because the world around us all day

long is changing and you have to

128

:

change and modernize and update your

show all the time because it's art.

129

:

It's living and it's breathing and

the biggest, the biggest mistake I

130

:

hear are shows that are frightened

of change and we as managers of those

131

:

people have got to do the work to

take that fear away so that our shows.

132

:

Stay in constant connection

with wherever the audience is

133

:

in that moment, emotionally.

134

:

Kipper: So, moving forward, how can

smarter radio people, and we've always

135

:

got the A students and then some others.

136

:

So taking that in a slightly different

direction, how can the smart radio people

137

:

Really keep up with all of the changing

things and trends and all of that,

138

:

which you're kind of talking about to

find that opportunity that we all have.

139

:

And, and part of my question is a

process of elimination because we're

140

:

all over flooded with information.

141

:

So what would you recommend for

them to distill, not so much for

142

:

their show prep, but for their life

143

:

Steve: prep?

144

:

So your question is, how can smart

people keep up with the changing trends?

145

:

That's easy, that's easy, Kipper.

146

:

That's, that's easy for me.

147

:

Find smarter people.

148

:

I mean, when I was, when I was a young

air personality, and I was kind of finding

149

:

my way, I, I was that guy, again, back

to when all of us were young in the

150

:

business, we'd send off five inch reels.

151

:

Right.

152

:

And resumes and package.

153

:

Remember those days?

154

:

Sure.

155

:

Oh, sure.

156

:

I remember getting a letter from a

program director who turned me down, and

157

:

he said, you sound like you're trying to

find your ways as a, as a morning person.

158

:

And they were right.

159

:

And then this line that

I've never forgotten.

160

:

To copy one is plagiarism, to copy

six is research, go do your research.

161

:

I've never forgotten that line.

162

:

The benefit of what I do as a talent

coach now is that every hour I'm

163

:

in the face of a different show.

164

:

And I see how different they all are

and how they make decisions and how

165

:

they use strategy and what their take is

on the world and their sense of humor.

166

:

I think you have to find

people smarter than you.

167

:

It's kind of trite to say that.

168

:

I think you have to do the work to be

comfortable, to be open, to be influenced

169

:

by a handful of people you trust.

170

:

Who will challenge how you view all

of this, so your thinking is evolving.

171

:

And how you view it changes

back to that change.

172

:

Again.

173

:

I think that's what you do.

174

:

I'm, I'm super lucky that over the span of

my career, I mean, I always say that Steve

175

:

Reynolds as a person doesn't really exist.

176

:

I'm, I'm a Frankenstein.

177

:

That's I'm a Frankenstein.

178

:

All I am is an amalgamation of

all the smart people that I've

179

:

been lucky enough to run into.

180

:

And then I, Suck them dry of everything,

you know, that I find to be great.

181

:

And that becomes part of my ethos

as a, as a radio professional.

182

:

I mean, there are days that John

Coleman can't get out of bed.

183

:

I've taken so much from John.

184

:

I mean.

185

:

John might be, you know, my, my,

one of my, I call him my rabbi when

186

:

I'm in trouble, I call him my rabbi.

187

:

But there are, there are many that

I've surrounded myself with, and

188

:

then I try to remember that when

I'm talking, I ain't learning.

189

:

So just ask a lot of questions,

take in the input, sift through

190

:

what's important and not, and that

becomes part of your philosophy.

191

:

And that's what I try to do with

shows as well, is just find smarter

192

:

people and ask lots of questions

and be influenced by them so that

193

:

my thinking doesn't fall into a rut.

194

:

That's a good

195

:

Dave: point, Steve.

196

:

What would you say some of the

effective strategies are for building

197

:

and maintaining an audience in

today's ultra competitive world?

198

:

Steve: Well, okay, so here we are, and

uh, you know, it's not:

199

:

just you and a couple of other good shows

in your market, and TV is nowhere on

200

:

the map and the internet doesn't exist.

201

:

And so Spotify is in the future and

Facebook's in the future and Twitter's in

202

:

the future and Instagram's in the future.

203

:

Talent today need to be multimedia stars.

204

:

And their companies have to

support and give them the

205

:

resources to elevate them there.

206

:

It's no longer good enough

just to be great on the radio.

207

:

You have to be great on the radio,

but you have to have a television

208

:

presence, a community presence.

209

:

Uh, you have to have a social

media presence and they all have

210

:

to interact with one another in

a, in a way that is generated by

211

:

content, wherever that audience is.

212

:

Why do they choose to interact with

you on that platform in that way?

213

:

It's because of the

content that you offer.

214

:

So you can't do great content on the

air and then say, Hey, on Facebook,

215

:

we're going to tell everyone

what's coming up on the show today.

216

:

That's blah, blah, blah to

Facebook users, and they're going

217

:

to do what they do to a break.

218

:

They're just going to scroll past you.

219

:

So there needs to be a content strategy

that is married under what your brand

220

:

represents, what your show is about.

221

:

And it needs to permeate all of

these platforms, and you have

222

:

to have a presence everywhere.

223

:

I look at, I'm fascinated, I would

love to have an inside seat in iHeart.

224

:

I have a zillion questions

about what was done.

225

:

I'm going to use this word.

226

:

I think it's crass.

227

:

I don't mean it in a crass way.

228

:

So I apologize.

229

:

I can't think of a more delicate word.

230

:

What was done to create Ryan

Seacrest and Bobby Bones?

231

:

Because both of them are

more than just radio stars.

232

:

No matter, if I turn left and

right, that's where they are.

233

:

I mean, I've always believed

that there's a Ryan Seacrest.

234

:

Factory somewhere that just churns

out Ryan Seacrest to go do all of the

235

:

things that Ryan does but each feeds

on the other And they're each of them

236

:

are bigger Perceived as bigger stars

and more valuable to their companies

237

:

because they have a presence everywhere

and I want to know how did that happen?

238

:

That talent need to have a business

manager who will help them put

239

:

that together and our our forward

thinking companies need to find their

240

:

talent who can have that persona

and help them develop that business

241

:

plan, a model by which they ascend

to that for as God rest your soul.

242

:

Day Medina used to say a gigastar

so that they can be gigastar.

243

:

Kipper: Right.

244

:

You know, that raises kind of an

interesting question in that we've

245

:

got the Ryan Seacrest, we've got the

Bobby Bones, we've got a few more on

246

:

kind of smaller levels, a little bit

more smaller galaxies, if you will,

247

:

but they're still kind of superstars.

248

:

But yet, when you think back, I

mean, In the early days of rock and

249

:

roll, of course, Alan Freed was one

who was all over the place until

250

:

he wasn't, for obvious reasons, but

Dick Clark, too, was one of them.

251

:

He's a TV producer.

252

:

He was host of a number of shows.

253

:

We still have New Year's Rockin Eve

named after him, years after his passing.

254

:

I guess one question I would ask you

is, why do you think there aren't

255

:

A few more Bobby Bones and Ryan

Seacrest or have been over the years.

256

:

And is that an opportunity for people

to really strive to have more of

257

:

a global 360 plan for their career

rather than just a radio show?

258

:

Steve: Yeah, excellent question.

259

:

I don't know why we don't have more.

260

:

I mean, the easy, the easy answer, and I

don't think it's the valid answer, is that

261

:

we've not been committed to creating them.

262

:

Um, you know, as, as the industry has

become smaller and money is a critical

263

:

element of the thought process of the

stations, you need those resources.

264

:

We can't hope our talent there.

265

:

We have to have, um, we have to commit

resources to do it, and I think because

266

:

of In, in some respects how the industry

has changed, we've not had that resource

267

:

necessary to create them and we've become

maybe shorter term thinking than we should

268

:

in, in, in some instances, um, and not

every talent has the money to employ

269

:

these people to help them become them.

270

:

And then we all, we become about

tomorrow's show or next week's show

271

:

and not what I want my career to be.

272

:

And so.

273

:

In no way is this an indictment

on any company or any talent.

274

:

We just have not thought about this.

275

:

And I think if we're going to continue

to stay relevant into the future, and I

276

:

think our industry is immensely relevant.

277

:

I think if we are going to stay

relevant, and we're going to do it

278

:

through talent, and we're going to do

it with long term game plans to create.

279

:

These, these giga stars, if I might,

for the benefit of the radio station

280

:

and the cluster and the company,

281

:

Dave: the always amazing Steve

Reynolds from the Reynolds group.

282

:

He's a great coach.

283

:

Hey, somebody you'd love to hear from.

284

:

We'd love to hear your suggestions,

email us show at brand with on demand.

285

:

com.

286

:

Kipper: And we'd also love

to hear from you online.

287

:

Just get in touch.

288

:

We're at brand with plus on Insta,

Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn,

289

:

brand with P L U S brand with

plus, and we'll see you there.

290

:

Dave: Coming up, Steve shares some

of the best advice he's ever gotten,

291

:

both personal and professional

292

:

Steve: music master, less stress.

293

:

Yes.

294

:

Spot: Hi, this is Jerry Butler

from the team at Music Master.

295

:

One of my favorite tips for

classic format programmers is to

296

:

use the breakable one day one hour

offset rule for artist keywords.

297

:

It's not just for songs.

298

:

That way your listeners won't

have the same sampling of artists.

299

:

Each time they tune in and we

turn the variety knob up to 11.

300

:

If you want to know more easy

ways to keep your station

301

:

sounding fresh, contact us today,

302

:

Steve: music, master music,

scheduling, the way it should be.

303

:

Listen today, lead tomorrow on demand.

304

:

Dave: We are with Steve Reynolds,

probably one of the greatest

305

:

coaches that you could ever even

306

:

Steve: want to be around.

307

:

And he's got the best advice

and we'd like to ask him now,

308

:

Dave: Steve, what's the best media

advice that you've ever gotten?

309

:

Steve: Wow.

310

:

What a question, David.

311

:

Can I give two pieces of advice

that I've received in my life?

312

:

that I want to share.

313

:

I'm going to tell you

about two pieces of advice.

314

:

One personal piece of advice

that impacted me professionally.

315

:

And I want to give you a piece of

professional advice I was given

316

:

that impacted me personally.

317

:

First, the personal piece of advice.

318

:

Years ago, when I was young, trying to

find my way as a talent, someone said

319

:

to me, why don't you go have counseling?

320

:

Why don't you go to Therapist?

321

:

Figure yourself out.

322

:

And I'm always game for many new

adventures, although kind of safe, but

323

:

that's, you know, it's kind of dangerous.

324

:

Let's go and learn about Steve.

325

:

And so every Wednesday at noon, I

hopped in my car when I programmed

326

:

WRAL in Raleigh, and I'd stop at a

subconscious sub shop on Hillsborough

327

:

Street by NC State's campus.

328

:

And I picked up a sub and I'd drive

to Durham where I visited with Dr.

329

:

Katherine Fulkerson.

330

:

Every Wednesday at noon for seven years.

331

:

Probably four years longer

than I needed to go.

332

:

Every great thing in my

life came from that work.

333

:

And I think if I were on the air

today, I would be much more genuine and

334

:

authentic and real with the audience.

335

:

What I learned about me brought me

so many good things professionally

336

:

that I share with talent.

337

:

Um, there are talent 20 years of

coaching, where I've very softly said,

338

:

maybe, maybe you should see someone.

339

:

About that, all that they're upset

with their partner consistently or they

340

:

can't break through or they're very

scared about their work environment.

341

:

I was that typical.

342

:

I was that guy that when I was on

the air that I would walk by the

343

:

boss's door was closed and I had

absolutely convinced myself that I

344

:

was the topic of conversation on the

other side and they were discussing

345

:

how I was going to be fired.

346

:

It's delusional.

347

:

I look back on, I'm embarrassed that

I thought that, but I was that guy.

348

:

I mean, it's therapy, I think,

that brought me to the ability

349

:

to share that with you.

350

:

I'm a big fan of Brene Brown and her

conversation about vulnerability, all

351

:

of this, for me to understand me better

so I can be a better professional for

352

:

the shows I work with, and if I were

on the air to be a better talent.

353

:

So to the person who gave me that personal

advice, I don't think they realized what

354

:

impact it would have on me professionally.

355

:

I received a lot of professional

advice when I started the company.

356

:

That I can share with you, but the one

that I wish to in this conversation

357

:

came from Pierre Bavard, who right now

works for Westwood One, great guy at

358

:

the time he worked for Coleman Research

at the time and that Coleman Insights.

359

:

And I said to Pierre, okay,

gonna start the company.

360

:

Give me a piece of advice.

361

:

And Pierre said to me, this, I've

held on to this for 20 plus years.

362

:

Pierre said to me, whatever

you have, give it away.

363

:

And I'm like, hmm, what does that mean?

364

:

He said, not going to tell you,

and you'll know it when you see it.

365

:

And what he was telling me was,

to create value from a business

366

:

perspective, but more so, just

because it's the right thing.

367

:

If you have a skill set, and someone

knocks on your door, Give it to them.

368

:

Just give it to them.

369

:

And I've had that, um, as part of my

philosophy as a person, that I, in my

370

:

time in doing this work, I've never

taken money but twice from talent.

371

:

And, and I won't share who they are.

372

:

You know, both of them, they are.

373

:

Multimillionaires, both of them, and

they had the resources to pay me.

374

:

And so I made exceptions generally.

375

:

It's like, I want the company to

pay me because the company has the

376

:

larger upside of the ad revenue

if we make the ratings go up.

377

:

So if a talent calls and says,

Hey, I want to employ you.

378

:

I say, nope, you don't make much and

I'm not going to take your money.

379

:

I'll work for free.

380

:

So if talent comes knocking on my door

and asks me to review a break, listen to

381

:

a show, um, give them a piece of advice.

382

:

My answer 100 percent of the time is yes.

383

:

Because it means they're not getting

it in their building, uh, they're

384

:

not getting it because probably their

program director or managers are just

385

:

too busy managing a zillion other things.

386

:

And so they've come to me

because I might've said

387

:

something that intrigued them.

388

:

So I'm going to give it to them for free

because that's the right thing to do.

389

:

And that piece of professional advice.

390

:

Has impacted me personally because I feel

like when I wrap all this up, I've done

391

:

my share of making the industry better.

392

:

And I feel better about

Steve because of that.

393

:

Good stuff.

394

:

So Steve, since

395

:

Kipper: we got

396

:

Steve: you here,

397

:

Kipper: I'm going to

ask one more question.

398

:

Steve: If you had

399

:

Kipper: one piece of advice, just one

that you were going to be giving somebody

400

:

that's just starting out the business.

401

:

What

402

:

Steve: would it be?

403

:

Can I, I can't negotiate the

one piece of advice, Kipper.

404

:

I never have just one piece of advice.

405

:

Kipper: Okay.

406

:

You're a tough bargain.

407

:

Steve: Go for it.

408

:

Well, first, be a good person.

409

:

I listened to your interview

with Phil Becker from Alpha.

410

:

I don't know Phil, but you

asked him a question about

411

:

what he looks for in talent.

412

:

And I was captured when I heard that.

413

:

For those listening to this, go

back and listen to the Phil Becker

414

:

conversation if you haven't.

415

:

It's brilliant.

416

:

And he said he's looking for

talented people, be a good person,

417

:

make this about everyone else

before you make it about you.

418

:

I think from a practical standpoint,

the one piece of advice I would

419

:

give Kipper is get to know people.

420

:

We are an incredibly small industry

and the people who are in this industry

421

:

still are great human beings at the

highest level of all of these companies.

422

:

Some of them get bad raps because

they're the big bad suit, but we.

423

:

I know them because my company is sort

of designed to know them and they're

424

:

all smart and great human beings.

425

:

They may not be able to return an email or

call you back because they got a billion

426

:

things going on, but if you go to a

convention, pull one of these people over.

427

:

They'll give you all the time in the

world because they're good people.

428

:

Go network.

429

:

And if you get to know those folks at

the highest level, you'll learn something

430

:

and opportunities will open for you.

431

:

Dave: The talent coach, Steve Reynolds.

432

:

Great to have him on the pod today.

433

:

We have links to his websites

and great articles and more in

434

:

our regular show notes, email.

435

:

We'll send it out before every episode.

436

:

You can easily get it.

437

:

Just scroll down, enter your

information for your free

438

:

Steve: subscription.

439

:

Kipper: As always, our thanks

to exec producer, Cindy Huber

440

:

and associate producer, Hannah

441

:

Steve: B and coming up

442

:

Kipper: next.

443

:

Hi,

444

:

Steve: it's

445

:

Eryn: Erin Cooper on the next brand

with on demand, find out how any and

446

:

all broadcast and digital skills can be

transferable to radio, how to embrace.

447

:

Um, and how I was a news reporter

that became a professional fangirl.

448

:

Dave: That's a wrap Kipper.

449

:

Nothing's going to change

around you until you change.

450

:

We'll talk about change in

the One Minute Martinizing.

451

:

Find it in show notes

at BrandwithOnDemand.

452

:

com.

453

:

Steve: I'm Dave Martin.

454

:

And I'm Kipper McGee.

455

:

Kipper: May all your brand with

456

:

Steve: be wide.

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Brandwidth On Demand
Brandwidth On Demand
The 15 Minute Podcast About Making Great Radio

About your host

Profile picture for Kipper McGee

Kipper McGee